This week on the pod, we sat down together to have a bit of a deeper chat and connect over our shared lived-experience with neurodivergence, chronic illness and disability. We touch on things like the social isolation we’ve both experienced, finding your people, masking, and even dating! We really enjoyed this honest, open and vulnerable chat, and we hope you guys do too. 💜
.png)
Transcript
Maddy: This podcast is recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nations. We pay our respects to the traditional custodians of this country and elders past and present. We extend our respects to any First Nations, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people joining us today.
Welcome to today's episode of No Spoons to Give, the podcast where we explore life's up and downs with neurodivergence chronic illness and disability, and chat with the voices that make our community so wonderful. Larissa, how are you going today?
Larissa: I am going swimmingly. I'm going very good. I'm caffeinated. I'm ready to go and I'm super excited for this episode.
Maddy: So, today, Larissa and I are going to be talking about a few topics that we haven't chatted about yet. We are going to be chatting a bit about friendships, our diagnosis, first reactions, and the impacts that our health conditions have had on our lives in a day-to-day way. So, we're really excited to dive into these topics with you and chat just a little bit more casually about what it's like for us.
Larissa: Absolutely. And we've done an intro episode together and I feel like we've only really skimmed the surface and we do talk about these things in our day-to-day work, but we've never actually sat down and got into the nitty-gritty of it and talked about our experiences with diagnosis and how our conditions affect our day-to-day. So, we're going to go a little bit deeper today.
Maddy: Very exciting. So, do you have a recommendation for me today, Larissa?
Larissa: I do. My recommendation for today, it's called 'The Blind Sea'. It's a documentary. It's now on Netflix, but it's across a few other platforms and it's featuring Matt Forsten. He's a Paralympian and four times world champion Blind surfer.
Maddy: Wow.
Larissa: Yeah. He was diagnosed with Macular Dystrophy at age five, and now he only has 3% vision remaining. The entire show just gave me goosebumps. And as a very amateur surfer, surfing is so hard and so scary. And he surfed Nazaré in Portugal, which is one of the biggest and scariest waves in the world. Yeah, definitely recommend you check it out.
Maddy: Yeah. That sounds absolutely fantastic. As someone who's not even an amateur surfer, I don't know if you could say, I have touched a board and I have not stood up on that board, but wow. To be able to have the sporting prowess of being able to surf one of the hardest places to surf, that is unbelievable.
Larissa: Yeah. Very wild. Have you got a recommendation for me?
Maddy: So, I've got a recommendation for you today and surprise, surprise, it is a book.
Larissa: Love that.
Maddy: It's called One For All by Lillie Lainoff. And it's a thrilling young adult historical fiction book that's basically a gender event retelling of the Three Musketeers. And it's about a chronically ill girl who trains to be a musketeer and basically uncovers secrets, finds community and finds self-love.
Now, the chronic illness she has is POTS. So, I feel like there's quite a few members of the community who would really get around this book. It's rare that we see a very excellent representation of chronic illness and the author themselves are chronically ill.
Larissa: Absolutely. That sounds super interesting. And yeah, I know we have so many Spoonies that have POTS and live with POTS as well. Speaking of chronic illnesses-
Maddy: Good segue.
Larissa: Good segue to talk about our own a little bit. So, many people in our community, they know that we obviously have lived experience and if you're wanting I guess a high-level conversation on this, go back to episode one where we pretty much info dump what we're diagnosed with. But today, I guess we're going into the impact that our health conditions have on our daily life. So, yeah, I guess great spot to start. Did you want to kick off, Maddy?
Maddy: Sure, sure. So, as you may remember, I do have an awful lot of chronic illnesses. I'll rattle them up quickly for you. ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, Long COVID, Raynaud's, and then a few others that are a bit undiagnosed that I won't unveil on this podcast, but they are definitely potentials and all of those affect me every single day.
I want to say maybe every single minute of every single day. But ME/CFS and Long COVID has a significant impact on my energy levels. So, that means that I am running really low on energy all the time. So, when I go to sleep, I do not feel rested. When I wake up, I usually feel like I've been crushed by a truck. So, yeah, from the start, you start off with a pretty significant impact on your day.
Larissa: Yeah. That's so hard. And so, can you remember a time where you were when you had full energy and full capacity? Because I know you've had your chronic illnesses for quite a long time, but something that I do is I think of my younger self and I'm like, "Oh, my god, I had so much energy and how did I do all these things?" And yeah, it is really hard to be operating at a lower capacity and know that that's your new normal as well.
Maddy: Yeah. The new norm is really tough. I was first diagnosed when I was 15 and that's when I first got sick. So, it is becoming harder and harder to remember a time when I did have a lot of energy, but I do have the faint memories of childhood where I did not exist on a tiny little low battery bar. But yeah, it's really interesting to see the difference between what it's like just every day now and then once upon a time what it was like. I never thought about having to be really careful with my energy because it was unlimited. A lot of people in the world.
Larissa: Yeah. And you really, I find having chronic illness and also neurodivergence too, you have to pick and choose your battles as well. That's a big thing that I find with work and socialising and friendship. And I guess really being mindful of, I mean, it goes back to spoon theory. If you only have five spoons a day, it's one spoon for going about your morning getting dressed. Let's be honest, it's like three spoons for your morning activities depending on what you're doing.
And then you might have two or three left. You've got your work day that might take two spoons. You've got one spoon left and someone asks you to go out for dinner or something like that. And it's not that you don't want to do it. I'd love to do it. I'd love to be more social, but you've still got work tomorrow and you've got all these competing things, and you really have to pick and choose who you spend your time with and what you spend your energy on. And even thinking of that probably takes up a spoon.
Maddy: Oh, it absolutely does. You've just hit the nail on the head. I feel like there's this unforeseen energy cost of having to plan out everything and think, "Okay, if I want to have dinner, I need to make sure that I have the groceries at home. If I don't, then I have to go to the supermarket or a friend maybe will kindly bring some groceries around or something like that."
But all of that organising takes up a lot of mental energy that people with these chronic conditions simply do not have. I mean, I simply do not have that most of the time. So, it's really tough and it takes a lot of planning, and planning is tough as well.
Larissa: Yeah. Planning definitely takes spoons. I want to talk a little bit too about, I guess pain. I know we both experience chronic pain in different ways and then blending pain and energy. Do you have one thing that you find is worse or it alternates or how does that all sit for you?
Maddy: I definitely feel like the pain impacts on my energy. If I have more of a high pain day, my energy is a bit more toast than usual. What about you?
Larissa: Yeah, yeah. Just so many thoughts. On top of all the cognitive load and then having ADHD and Autism, I also have Endometriosis, which it actually is affecting me today. Shout out to Flex Ease. Definitely not sponsored. We've got the heat backs in the studio though. But back pain, I had surgery for Endometriosis probably like five or six years ago, and part of that was that the endometriosis was found on some of my sacral ligaments, which is the ligaments around your lower back area.
So, having those areas cut into and operated on my lower back has never been the same. And going back to what we were talking about before, thinking of your younger self, sometimes I'm like, "Oh, my god, I wish I could go back to my younger self before I had back pain." Because some days it's great, but most days I have a level of back pain. And most days of the week, I'm getting up and I'm completely bent over to the side.
And yeah, I don't know. I think it's just important to talk about those things because so much of the time we do just push on, and I know so many people in our community do this as well. I guess the purpose of today's episode is just pulling back behind the curtains because so many of us just push through these things and we don't talk about them, and it's really important.
Maddy: And if we don't talk about the impacts that pain and chronic illness does have on our everyday lives, then people just simply don't know. And more importantly, the people who are living with those conditions don't have any gauge that there are other people who are struggling.
So, if you are struggling, if you're having a bad pain day or a bad chronic illness day, please know that we, well, I'm probably also having one too, so you could always think of us and we're here struggling with you as well. You are definitely not alone in this little community, I mean big community. It feels little because we're so tight-knit. This community is here for you no matter what kind of day you're having.
Larissa: Absolutely. And that's one of the most beautiful things about our Spoony community too, is seeing people having hard days on Spoony and just seeing everyone rally around them and really support each other. And I guess not just in an Autism sense, but being able to unmask and not have to push on and pretend and pretend like everything's fine. I think it's just really beautiful.
I really want to talk about diagnosis and first reactions and that type of thing. It's so hard receiving a diagnosis sometimes it's not a shock because it's just confirming what you already know. What was it like for you first realising or being diagnosed with chronic illness?
Maddy: Well, I was relieved at the time because it was between leukaemia and a random chronic illness. So, I was like, I'm just glad that I don't have leukaemia, but obviously both are not great. But yeah, I was also, at the time, I was not as grateful as I should have been because I did not know how hard it was to get a diagnosis, but I was really lucky to have a GP who I had since I was little, who was able to diagnose me with ME. So, I was really lucky in that example. It only took about three months or so for me to get diagnosed, which is really rare. So, very lucky to have that. But yes, still not an amazing thing to have to live with.
Larissa: Yeah. For sure.
Maddy: What about you?
Larissa: Yeah. Similar thing. I guess I'll start off with my Endometriosis. So, that was something I was having really painful periods all throughout school. It was university that it got really bad. And I remember I started tracking my pain, and I remember looking back at a calendar of 30 days and there were only two pain-free days. And just seeing that on paper, I was like, "Oh, this is so much worse than I thought." And luckily at the time I was studying to be an osteopath, so I was across what pathways to go through to get the diagnosis I needed. Just for reference, most people to get diagnosed with Endo, it takes seven to 10 years on average.
Maddy: Wow.
Larissa: I got all of mine done in under a year. But even to just get that first GP appointment, the first GP called me hysterical, which is classic. And then, yeah, I saw a few different GPs and I pretty much sat down and was like, I think this is what I have. I want you to write this referral to this gynaecologist that I want to see that specialises in this condition arranged all of that. It was all during COVID as well, so it was really hard. Yeah. Had my surgery.
So, for Endo, you have to be diagnosed at the moment by surgery. So, I think in really severe cases you can get a scan and don't quote me on this, it's not medical advice, but most of the time you need a keyhole surgery to diagnose it. So, after the surgery, I still didn't know. So, I was recovering for a week and that whole week I still didn't know if I had it.
Maddy: Oh, wow.
Larissa: So, you've got this situation where you're recovering, you're in lots of pain. You've had all these health professionals and surgeons and everything working on you. And the only thing I could think of was how embarrassing if I don't have it and I've caused all this trauma. Anyone who's had Endo knows that feeling after the surgery, because it's not like you wake up and they tell you, you just have to wait until your follow-up appointment.
Maddy: It's so unbelievably hard.
Larissa: Yeah. It was such a relief to have that diagnosis because yeah, thankfully I wasn't faking it, which is a thing that so many people in our community struggle with. Even I know people who have a diagnosis sometimes they're like, "Oh, am I faking it? Am I faking my Autism? Am I faking my ADHD?" And it's just such a harmful narrative that we're quite often fed and all of the shame that goes around that as well. It's a really hard thing. And then being diagnosed with ADHD and Autism, so that's been the last couple of years. Same thing like if I look back at my 20s, it was a bit of a train wreck like I've had.
Maddy: I think a lot of people can relate to that. That's okay to have a train wreck 20s.
Larissa: Yeah. I just look back at certain things and I'm like, "Oh, god." And so, much of it. I still have a lot of shame around trying to start businesses and obviously it's so clear now. I was chasing dopamine and saying I'm doing different things and not following through and everyone in my life being like, "Oh, you're doing this job now and you're doing that."
And yeah, it does feel very shameful to me, but now I understand why it was like that and I'm starting to slowly deal with that. But yeah, being diagnosed with ADHD, I know it can be very expensive in Australia, upwards of a couple $1,000, long wait times. I did wait eight months, but I was very lucky to be diagnosed very quickly. For me, it was quite a simple process. I did some questionnaires and it was like he took one look at me and was like, yeah. And then as that psychiatrist got to know me a bit better, I did some more questionnaires and we had more chats and there was Autism picked up.
And the way he explained it to me was the Autism is like, there's not medication for that. It's like who you are and your neurotype and put yourself in situations where you feel comfortable and that kind of thing. But the ADHD was like medication and strategies. So, yeah, that's my diagnosis journey. And I feel very privileged and grateful that I do have a diagnosis for the conditions I have because I know for lots of people, it's not accessible. And also, just wanted to touch on self-diagnosis can be very valid as well.
Maddy: Yeah. It absolutely can. Getting a diagnosis can be inaccessible in so many ways. An incredibly complicated thing to get. And self-diagnosis is just as valid.
Larissa: Absolutely. We might go to a quick ad break and then we'll be back to yapping very soon. We want to talk about balancing social life and needs and also dating, friendship, relationships, all of the fun stuff. So, we will be back. Hey, Maddy. Do you want to know what one of my favourite profile features is on Spoony?
Maddy: That you can use it to post more photos of your dog?
Larissa: I'll take any opportunity I can to post dog pics, but no. Did you know that Spoony allows you to share your support needs on your profile so that your new friends can understand you a bit better? On mine, I've got routines, quiet spaces, energy conservation and visual schedules because we all know how much I love mind maps and naps.
Maddy: That's so cool. Can I put energy conservation there? I have to pace my energy or else I get really exhausted.
Larissa: You absolutely can. There's so many cool profile features that make Spoony unique to any other social platform. You can also display your conditions or illnesses, share your interests, and let people know how your energy levels are tracking by using our signature Spoon status. I'd really encourage people to check it out for themselves. You can sign up for free using the link in this podcast or you can find us in the app store or Google Play.
Maddy: So, we're going to dive a little bit into friendships. Now, I know friendships can be a bit of a contentious topic. It's incredibly hard to balance friendships or being neurodivergent, chronically ill, disabled. And it shouldn't be hard. It should not at all be hard. I think the world makes it a lot harder than it should be. It's not a reflection. I'm saying this is much for myself as for everyone else. Difficulties with friendships are not a reflection of yourself. It's simply a reflection of being different in the world that is not always built for you.
Larissa: 100%. Yeah.
Maddy: Yeah. So, if you are struggling with friendships or if you can relate, please take a little comfort. We'll dive into our tragic stories. No, not all tragic, but you are not alone.
Larissa: Yeah. Ups and downs.
Maddy: Yeah. Ups and downs. So, Larissa, you want to take the reins?
Larissa: Oh, yeah. So, starting with friendship. It's such a hard topic. I had no struggles with friendship in school and I think I potentially put that down to maybe that structured environment and you're forced to be friends, not forced. That sounds really bad. Sorry to my friends. I love you. But going off-topic, but I have some really good friends from high school that I'm still good friends with.
Maddy: That's great.
Larissa: The first time I struggled with friendship was university. So, I was undiagnosed and I was from a little country area thrown into university in the city, and I just did not fit in. So, five years of uni, I just could not insert myself into friendship groups. And I tried so many different groups and I just could not do it. And I didn't feel comfortable with any of these people. And none of them were bad people by any means, but I guess, yeah, they just potentially weren't my people.
And then going into university years with Endometriosis, I was often like cancelling plans because of flareups. This is when I was undiagnosed and untreated. And so, many people would be like, "Oh, it's period pain." And I'm like, "No, but I can't get out of bed. And I missed a lot of things."
And when that keeps happening, it gets to a point where you do stop getting invited to things. And I think people don't do this. They don't mean to be nasty or anything like that, but they're like, "Oh, I thought you wouldn't be able to come and I didn't want to put pressure on you." And I don't know, this might be something you've experienced as well. My advice is please just keep inviting people even if they can't come because we do appreciate it.
Maddy: Yeah. I think that is fantastic advice. Yeah, I definitely have struggled with the not being able to go to events because of chronic pain or chronic illness, chaos, and then not getting the invites anymore. People look at the pattern, they're like, "Oh, this person can't come to events very often. I just won't invite them." And I totally get why. But even if we can't go to something, it's still nice to know that we were wanted there.
Larissa: Yeah, 100%.
Maddy: I am usually— if I have to cancel plans, I am distraught. I'm not a happy camper that I have to cancel them. And I feel like people don't see that. They don't see that you are actually genuinely devastated not to be able to go to something.
Larissa: Yeah. And that they think you're flaky or rude or you don't care about their birthday or their event. It's really hard on both parties.
Maddy: I think so. Yeah.
Larissa: It's super tricky. And then also socialising as an Autistic person in ADHD, so I go nonverbal. Around the right people, I can chat for hours and that type of thing. In my early 20s, I definitely use alcohol as a coping mechanism because I would yap a lot more.
Maddy: It's very common.
Larissa: Yeah. It's so common in the neurodivergent community. And I don't really drink anymore. It's pretty rare for me. So, now I'm finding myself still at social events where I would normally be the life of the party on the dance floor at a wedding or something, I don't fit in. I will talk to a few people that I feel comfortable with, but I'm learning to accept too that I just have a social limit. And when I reach that, I don't feel like I'm a fun person to be around. So, I would rather just leave a situation and politely excuse myself and it's so hard.
Maddy: Well, I'd like to say I think you're fun no matter how you are. You're just fun as a person. It's a defining feature, but I totally understand that knowing that you need to bounce when things are just, you're not feeling good.
Larissa: Yeah. And I know a lot of Autistic people struggle with this as well, and it could be an ADHD thing too. You just hit that limit. And sometimes goodbyes in an event can take an hour, but it's like, I need to get out of here now. I can't be here for another minute. I need to go home.
Maddy: Irish goodbye.
Larissa: That's what it's called.
Maddy: When you just disappear.
Larissa: I call it a smoke bomb.
Maddy: Oh, I like that!
Larissa: I just discreetly leave. And people are like, "Where did you go?" And I'm like, "I just had to leave." And people are getting okay with that. I think it's just what I'm known for now. But yeah, if I was to do that with new friends, it probably wouldn't go down well. So, yeah, it's really hard.
Maddy: Yeah. It's hard trying to explain to new people like this is how things need to go. So, you can be at your best and both parties can be happy.
Larissa: Yeah. For sure. And I think you and I are both very empathetic people as well, so you feel bad.
Maddy: Oh, so bad.
Larissa: If I leave an event, I'll go home and I feel so much guilt and I'll often message that person and just be like, "Hey, I'm really sorry I had to leave. But this came up or I wasn't feeling too well." And yeah, it's not like we're leaving and just like we don't care about the wake of destruction. We're leaving. We really do care. And I know so many people in our community, they struggle with this as well. And it is something that really can hinder friendships and relationships.
Maddy: Yeah. I absolutely agree. My troubles with friendships really started when I first got sick at 15. I lost the majority of my friends because I couldn't get to school. And that's what happens. I used to take it more personally. I used to be like, "Oh, my friends weren't great friends or anything," but it's the reality - everyone is immature at 15. They're focused on themselves, their own lives.
It totally makes sense for why people would just bounce. If you're not there, it's the object permanence. If you're not there, then you don't exist. And I definitely felt that. And so, going back to school was really hard for me because I knew that the friends that were there, they weren't really there for me.
So, I did feel quite alone. And that was where I actually found amazing friends online. I don't know, I hope other people can relate to this. Not that I hope they've had friendship struggles, but online friendships, they got me through. I was on Tumblr and I made a lot of friends through a little writing community and we used to chat on Skype all the time, text or video, and they were from different countries.
Larissa: That's so cool.
Maddy: They were older than me and I was like, "These are my people. These people love writing!" I struggled to find friends that I could really relate to in high school. So, it was like I first got the taste of the people that were for me and I was like, "This is the best." And I still have them on my social media and stuff like that now.
Larissa: That's awesome.
Maddy: I know.
Larissa: How cool is that realisation too often when you leave high school and you start finding out who you are and finding the right people and it just clicks? Socialising feel as hard. And I think particularly for our community, online communities are so important, especially right now with everything going on in the world.
But for a lot of people online connection is potentially their only form of connection. And with algorithms and different things, it's almost like finding Spoony match for example. It's finding your exact people straight away without having to try and physically walk down the street and find them. I do think online connections is such a beautiful thing and even better if you can bring them into your real life and have those connections. I think it's a really valuable way of finding your people.
Maddy: Exactly. Beats walking down the street, banging a saucepan, saying, "Hello, chronically ill people. Where are you? I want to be your friend."
Larissa: Literally.
Maddy: Which is what I would've reverted to do if I didn't have Tumblr at my disposal. And I knew in high school that university was going to be where I found people who I could connect with and who liked the things that I liked. And we got along and luckily, I was so right. I also did a creative writing degree, so lots of similar brains to me bobbin around in that university classroom. So, it really, it felt like, "Hey, there's people like me out there, high school sucked, but hey, things are going to get better." And they did.
But also, I struggled with some people that I thought were my friends, but who were then to be found— [sighs] They didn't believe that I was chronically ill. And so, there was a couple of them who would be texting behind my back about how I was fake. Because I tried to be open about my chronic illness to my university friends because I really wanted to deal with the shame that came with marking yourself as different.
And I know in a way it is a privilege to have an invisible illness where it's not visible that you are chronically ill and disabled, but it also, it comes with its own problems. And it was definitely a wake-up call to realise that, hey, not everyone is going to treat you well regardless of how amazing a friend you are. Some people just can't tolerate difference.
Larissa: Yeah, 100%.
Maddy: And guess what? You got to toss those friends in the trash.
Larissa: You do.
Maddy: They're not for you.
Larissa: They don't stick around.
Maddy: No.
Larissa: Absolutely not. I want to talk to you as well about dating and relationships because this is something that comes up in Spoony so often.
Maddy: Yeah. Absolutely.
Larissa: Friendships are so hard, but dating.
Maddy: Dating. It is tough. I know that you have successfully found someone who is your perfect pair. Your brains match together. Not that everyone needs to be diagnosed with the same conditions to be a perfect pair, but I know that you and your partner are very happy. And you have amazing strategies of how to both make the most of your life without letting all the negativity of the problems that come with neurodivergence.
Larissa: Yeah. For sure. And I haven't been in the dating world for a long time. We've been together for most of my 20s. Very happy relationship. Both neurodivergent. We get along swimmingly. So, one of the really interesting things that my psychiatrist said to me is looking back at the train wreck that has been my 20s and it's still not over. It's getting better. But all of those inconsistencies and chopping and changing in my life, he found it quite interesting. He's like, "Your one consistency has been your relationship."
And knowing now that my partner's also neurodivergent and it was just interesting he was saying that neurodivergent brains typically find each other and work best together. And I feel that so strongly in my relationship. And I would be terrified going into the neuro-typical dating world.
Maddy: It is a bit scary out there. I won't lie. I've had my time in the dating world. I'm still there, in and out. It is not an easy place to be, especially when you're chronically ill, disabled, neurodivergent. There's a lot to be dealing with. And then there's so many things like when do you disclose that you are chronically ill or disabled? Do we talk about access requirements straight off the bat? Do we just let the charm of my personality win you over before I toss all of the fun parts of my life at you?
Larissa: It's so hard to think about all of that.
Maddy: It's hard, it's so hard. But I totally empathise with what you said about how neurodivergent brains find one another because the best relationships that I've had and the closest friendships that I've had have been with neurodivergent people. And I just feel I'm not looking for these people. I'm not sticking labels on people and being like, "That's my person. I'm going to hunt them down." That's a bit scary.
I don't know. You get drawn to someone else, especially— It takes a while for me to truly feel like I can be myself around someone. I'm super good at putting on an act, but it's a relief to take that act slightly off and being able to reveal your true self.
Larissa: For sure.
Maddy: And I only feel comfortable doing that, most of the time it's been around other neurodivergent people.
Larissa: Interesting.
Maddy: Yeah. It's like of course if I can't feel like I can open up and be myself, how far am I going to get in a relationship?
Larissa: Yeah. And then it's also true is that relationship based on a version of yourself that isn't even real and you have to keep that up.
Maddy: Exactly, exactly. It's so unbelievably tough. And I know that luckily, I don't feel as alone in it because I know that other people have struggled. Shout out to anyone who's shared their struggles on Spoony — you're helping me through. And I do think it's something that we need to keep talking about because there's not enough conversations about dating and navigating life when you are dealing with so many other things on your plate. It's tough.
Larissa: It's a lot.
Maddy: It's like the last thing you want to deal with, but it's also something that's so important.
Larissa: For sure. We don't have the answer.
Maddy: I don't have— I wish I could give you a proper answer like a strategy, but I do not. We'll be muddling along together.
Larissa: That's it. I've thoroughly enjoyed this yap today. I feel like we need to make it a regular segment.
Maddy: Same. I love talking to you. I feel like every single time—
Larissa: It's so fun.
Maddy: — I get to know you a little bit better.
Larissa: It's so nice.
Maddy: It's so nice to feel comfortable enough to open up about these topics.
Larissa: Yeah. It's so lovely. I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
Maddy: Thank you so much.
Larissa: Thanks, Maddy. Until the next time.
Maddy: And thank you for listening as well everyone.
Larissa: Thank you so much guys.
Maddy: This podcast is brought to you by Spoony, a safe space for neurodivergent chronically ill and disabled people to make friends and find support. Spoony is the world's very first social app designed with accessibility at its core.
If you like this episode, it would mean the absolute world to us if you could hit subscribe or share it with a friend. If you'd like to join our Spoony community, you can download the app on the app store or via Google Play. And if you'd like to keep up to date with us on social media, you can follow us via the links in the show notes.